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Dec 27
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Adam Kotsko's avatar

"I don't subscribe to the biological determinist view that our selves and society are merely the one-way outgrowth of fundamental biological processes" -- nor do I, to be clear.

Adam Kotsko's avatar

Also, I don't think it makes sense to view it as a weapon. It is more likely something intended to be good (hence the flooding with endorphins, the harmony, the inability to do harm) that got out of control. There's no evidence that the senders of the signal even know humanity exists, much less want to destroy them prior to any contact. Nor do the human drones know who will receive their signal. Unless someone is bent on omni-genocide, the effect of wiping out the species has to be an unintended side-effect.

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Dec 27
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Adam Kotsko's avatar

The parallel with Left Hand of Darkness is the possibility of a sexual relationship between a human and an alien who has taken a suitable form (the narrator's guide, who famously swaps genders at the crucial moment). In other words, the theme that most people associate with the book is what they had in mind.

Victor Minjares's avatar

Adam, any aliens who create a Pluribus-type virus do not have to know of humanity and make a judgment as to whether they are dangerous before deciding to exterminate them. You seem to imply the aliens would need some motivation as to humanity’s malicious character traits to try to kill them. However, it would be far more likely that aliens created and spread the Pluribus virus because they perceive of any intelligent technological species as a potential threat someday, even eons into the future. Perhaps even a miniscule possibility of future extermination is plenty of reason (for them) to wipe out other intelligences in the universe, even if utterly unknown to them or yet to evolve.

Adam Kotsko's avatar

Kind of like an intergalactic versio of Dick Cheney's 1% doctrine, except in this case it's the 0.0000000000000000000001% doctrine.

Hill Harman's avatar

This is fascinating because my own reaction and the reactions of some fellow travelers (APS, Aaron Brady) have been so negative. I find the episodes genuinely frustrating to watch, and while the philosophical possibilities of the plot are interesting, I’m afraid it requires a polymathic intelligence such as your own, as well a tremendous amount of good will and supplementation, to parse as meaningful. Or maybe quitting social media just fixed your brain. Maybe you’ve de-joined. I’m still unable to let go, although it’s a less interesting place without you.

Adam Kotsko's avatar

Interesting! I respect Aaron a lot, but we've also disagreed a lot. And I don't think I would say either Aaron or Anthony (or you!) have significantly less polymathic intelligence than mine! But the idea that it's not meaningful or that it's difficult to parse is very strange to me.

Hill Harman's avatar

It fucking autocorrected me to Brady from Bady. I’m sorry Aaron! I think the show reads on its face, to the average watcher, as a genuine conflict about which is better, to be assimilated or to be an individual, which they do by making Carol such a miserable person. To me, the hive mind seems obviously bad, but the show is very equivocal about this, which requires something approaching dishonesty.

Adam Kotsko's avatar

What makes it interesting is that it makes the hive mind seem (initially) desirable. Otherwise there's no thought experiment and no show.

Hill Harman's avatar

I guess my reaction to the hive was “well that obviously doesn’t work if you think about it for five seconds,” but while she’s right in her general reaction, Carol is such a dick that it is simply painful. At best it reads as “oohhh the one and the many! Isn’t that interesting!” But the eradication of individual consciousness and all meaningful interpersonal interaction from the universe is possibly the most horrific thought imaginable other than eternal torment, and it doesn’t feel like the show takes any of that seriously.

Adam Kotsko's avatar

I know my response seems to you to be stretching and filling in gaps, but yours feels kind of insanely reductive and dismissive. Did you watch TNG and react like this to the Borg?

Hill Harman's avatar

The Borg is obviously bad, though. It’s like… the worst thing in the whole TNG universe and portrayed as such. The interesting tension there is that something so obviously bad might be worth thinking about (with the Picard plotline). Like maybe an egomaniacal psycho might see this as a relief.

Alex Gough's avatar

Great analysis for a great series. Thank you!

Vittorio Bonzi's avatar

To me, it's adamantine what the Joining stands for: it's just a Utilitarian's dream

JoeG's avatar

Kusimayu is Peruvian, not Native American

Adam Kotsko's avatar

She is clearly indigenous, which is what I meant.

Wahnzettel Reverer's avatar

(I've only read the first few paragraphs to avoid spoilers.)

I'd initially written it off after reading some bad reviews, but now I think I'll give this show a shot. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.